“ EVEN IF POWER IS GIVEN, IF YOU DON’T TAKE IT, YOU DON’T REALLY HAVE IT.”

— KEN LEUNG

On Industry, Ken Leung and Myha’la Herrold inhabit a world of glass walls and terminal anxiety, playing two financiers who bartered pieces of themselves for a seat at the trading desk.

We’ve watched Ken and Myha’la for seasons as Harper and Eric, the rising shark and the weary predator, navigating a London finance scene that treats human empathy like a glitch in the algorithm. But in the room together, the "legend and the protégé" narrative they were sold back when they met in 2019 has dissolved into something far more interesting and human. There is a restlessness to Myha’la that feels like a refusal to be consumed. She occupies her space with a "woo-woo" defiance, a Gen Z insistence that her identity isn't found in the trades or the call sheet, but in the soil—in plants, in animals, in the "community of vulnerability" that the corporate world tries to iron out. She is the internal scream of a generation that sees the "American Dream" for what it is: a sales pitch promising corner offices and fast cars. To her, the "natural reward" of being human, open, messy, and grounded in the environment, is worth more than the performance of being a shark. Ken meets that energy with a different kind of intensity. He isn't the loud noise of someone trying to prove they belong; he is the heavy, focused silence of someone who actually does. He’s seen the minefields. He knows that the more someone shouts about their power, the more they reveal the void where their authority should be. He watches the energy in the room with the stillness of a man who knows that if you chase the truth too aggressively, it runs away. In a culture that measures worth in performance and perception, their bond is a quiet act of sabotage. They are two actors in sync, not because they’ve mastered the jargon of finance, but because they’ve mastered the art of holding onto each other while the world accelerates into a blur. They are the only real thing in a room full of glass walls.

“ WHEN PEOPLE ALLOW THEMSELVES TO BE VULNERABLE TOGETHER, THEY’RE STRONGER TOGETHER.”

— MYHA’LA

David Gargiulo __ I’m so excited to talk to both of you together. With the success and relevance of Industry, this feels like such a cultural moment. But before we get into the themes of the show, let’s go back to the beginning. When you first met, what did you think of each other?

Myha’la Herrold __ We met in 2019. I thought Ken was a legend. Still do. I thought he was so cool and chill. Experienced. Like he had everything figured out. I was explicitly told, “He’s the adult on set. Go to him. If you need answers, mentorship; he’s your guy.”

Ken Leung __ My first impression wasn’t that we were meeting for the first time. It felt like we were meeting again. There was something familiar. Maybe it was the way you said hello; it felt like, “Oh, hello again.” I didn’t expect that, and it relaxed me. I had anxiety about starting a new project. We were in Wales, I’d never been there before. Even though I’d done a lot of work, it still felt new. So that unexpected familiarity really grounded me. 

DG __ It sounds like you have a calming effect on each other. Which feels necessary on a show as intense as Industry, where power is constantly shifting between your characters. How do you think about power? Is it something that’s taken, earned, or given?

KL __ I would say it’s taken. Because even if it’s given, if you don’t take it, you don’t really have it. Like just now. The way I answered first when Myha’la was thinking. I could’ve let her keep thinking, but I had something to say, so I took it. I trusted she’d be okay with that.

MH __  I’m actually not okay with it. That was so rude. How dare you. I’m taking it back. I’m reclaiming my power. [both laugh] I do agree. I also think power is, to some degree, perception. Money is powerful, but it’s also perceived as powerful. When Ken and I first met, I perceived him as having power in that situation. So in a way, I gave it to him. But that was just my perception, it wasn’t necessarily what was actually happening. You can make people believe you have power whether or not you do. People do it all the time, for example governments do it. There’s a perceived power that sometimes turns out not to even exist. You can give power away as easily as you can take it. It feels like an acting exercise. It’s about who’s more convincing.

KL __ Which is funny, because if someone is going out of their way to show they have power, it usually reveals that they don’t.

DG __ Interesting. Do you have an example?

KL __  It’s a bit of a minefield. But we’re living in a time when a lot of people are making a particular kind of noise to influence how we think. And sometimes the more they do that, the more they reveal the opposite of what they want us to believe.

DG __ Oh boy. You are right, definitely, a minefield. We’ll thread lightly. Let’s leave it here. [All laugh] Industry suggests that in modern life, value is tied to performance. Do you think we’ve confused productivity with identity?

KL __ I think it depends on the person. Identity is how you perceive yourself. Some people tie that to what they do. Some people tie it to how much they mean to other people. So it depends on who we’re talking about.

DG __ Let’s start with your characters in Industry.

KL __ In terms of our characters, yes. I’d say they tie their identity to a certain kind of achievement and to the place they hold within the company. With our two characters, there’s also been a very specific climb. A very particular struggle, especially as people of color, and as Americans in London, within a very established system that works a certain way. They’ve had to adopt a certain toughness. A certain way of being. And if you asked my character, I think he would absolutely tie his identity to that climb, to the ladder he’s built. To the point where he’s forgotten other parts himself. He’s forgotten how to be a father. There’s an empty space where that identity should be. 

MH __ I think Harper is absolutely building her identity around success because she doesn’t want to be defined by her past. From the moment we meet her, she’s running away from something and toward a new story about who she is and what she’s capable of. If someone asked her, “Who are you?” she’d probably say, “Read the trades.” You’ll know exactly who I am based on what I do. She avoids defining herself through relationships. She doesn’t want people thinking about that side of her. So her identity becomes less about how she sees herself and more about how she wants to be perceived. Because to interrogate why she needs to be defined by her work would mean going back to her past and she really doesn’t want to do that.

DG __ Using the show as a vehicle to discuss society and the definition of capitalism. Do you think capitalism expects us to build identity through achievement?

MH __ I don’t know what capitalism expects from us. I think it expects assimilation so it can keep running. The American Dream says: buy a house, start a family, climb the ranks, and that’s what makes you American. So yes, we’ve been taught to identify ourselves through achievements. That’s very general. But individually, at least in my circles, I think people are more intentional now. When I think about my identity, race comes into it. I’d probably say first that I’m a Black woman in America. But honestly, that often feels more about how I’m treated than how I see myself. Beyond that, I’d say I care deeply about the environment. About justice. I’m fascinated by human nature, which is probably why I’m an actor. I love animals. Plants. People. That’s more how I define myself now. 

KL __ When I hear “capitalism,” I think of selling. I think part of this country’s identity is that it sees itself as a great salesman. We sell ideals. We pitch ourselves as the land of opportunity, the land of the free. Everywhere we look, something is being sold to us, consciously or unconsciously. When you’re selling, your attention is outward. You’re thinking about how you’re being received. Are you loud enough? Louder than the next person? But I think we’re in a moment now where more people are saying, “Wait. I don’t buy this.” There’s a reckoning happening. We’re starting to see cracks in the framework. We see how it can be abused. How things can be manipulated, especially the packaging of truth. So now the question becomes: what is the truth? Where do I stand in proximity to it? What is my truth? That feels new. Or at least newly urgent.

“ WE’RE LIVING IN A TIME WHEN A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE MAKING A PARTICULAR KIND OF NOISE TO INFLUENCE HOW WE THINK.”

— KEN LEUNG

BRANDS: MYHA’LA WEARS MCQUEEN, MIU MIU, ELIE SAAB, PANDORA, STELLA MCCARTNEY, CARTIER. KEN WEARS TOD’S, DUNHILL, CANALI.

LOCATION: THE STANDARD HIGH LINE. MUSIC: «GONE» BY SIERRA VEINS

DG __ I love hearing your perspective on these topics. Going back to Industry: in the show, vulnerability is often punished. Do you think that reflects the culture we’re living in now?

MH __ Maybe it’s because I’m Gen Z, but I actually feel like vulnerability is rewarded now, at least emotionally. I think that’s part of the shift. If a certain class of people tries to punish vulnerability, they’re failing, because a much larger group is rewarding it every day. There’s power in that lack of self-consciousness. It creates community. It creates resilience. When people allow themselves to be vulnerable together, they’re stronger together. But it goes back to power — asserting it, trying to convince people you have it when you don’t. That performance usually comes from avoiding vulnerability. And you can’t really punish someone for speaking their truth if they don’t accept the punishment. If they’re like, “Okay. I don’t care what you think.” That’s power. I think more and more, generally speaking, we’re rewarding vulnerability. And I also think nature rewards it, in ways we might not even recognize while it’s happening.

DG __ Can you give an example?

MH __Okay, now we’re getting a little woo-woo, which is my favorite way to be. [laughs] For example, when people allow themselves to be vulnerable, community forms. That’s nature working as it should. The “reward” isn’t intentional. It's just what happens. And as someone who loves human nature, plants, the planet, that feels really rewarding to me.

DG __ Love that. That’s a great example.

MH __ David, are you Italian?

DG __ Yes.

MH __ I knew it! [laughs] Besides the accent. I was in Rome recently doing interviews for Industry, and the questions were like this: reflective, philosophical. I was being invited to talk about things in a way I never had before. I just want to say I’m really enjoying this. I love the Italians! 

KL __ I have another example of the way nature responds to different behaviors. I have two cats. And I’ve noticed when I chase my cats, when I’m aggressive or demanding, they run away. That’s how they interpret it. But when I calm down, when I’m not asking for anything, they come to me. They respond to something natural. When I’m “selling” something, even just attention, they resist. When I stop selling and just sit there, they come over. They’re not intellectual about it. They’re just responding to the energy. That feels connected to what we’re talking about.

MH __ Great example. And also, stop chasing your cats. [All laugh]

DG __ Okay, I wanna lighten things up a little. Who breaks character more often on set?

KL __ You mean in the middle of a scene? There was a rehearsal in season two where Myha’la and I did the scene as a musical. Not really breaking character, but it was fun, shaking things up.

“ HOLLYWOOD RUNS ON VIBES, BABY.”

— MYHA’LA

MH __ That was so fun. If I don’t get a musical episode someday… [Both laugh] Ken, you are a legit singer.

KL __ Not really. Myha’la is the one with the Broadway chops.

MH __ Except, you were the one on Broadway. [Both laugh]

DG __ Okay, I have two more questions. The first one is …

KL __ What is the meaning of the universe?

DG __ Jab! [All laugh] I know some of these questions have been philosophical.

KL __ Joking we love it.

DG __ Good to know. So … what is the meaning of life? Sorry, sorry, joking. [All laugh] The characters run on adrenaline and fear. Do you see parallels in the entertainment industry?

MH __ Hollywood runs on vibes, baby. [All laugh] We actors? We run on truth and storytelling. It’s our lifeline. Higher up, people are more business-minded, but on the ground, it’s love of the craft.

KL __ Making a movie or TV show, you’re so scheduled, your day is structured, your parameters are set. That can create adrenaline, because you’re constantly racing to get all the scenes and shots done on time. That pace naturally creates a sense of adrenaline, maybe even fear.

MH __ Fear comes from the producers worrying about paying overtime if we cut into lunch. [Both laugh] Random things happen too: technical problems, weather, lost locations, someone getting sick. All of these factors can trigger adrenaline and fear. That’s when the line producer gets really creative and calls you: “Can you come in right now to shoot pages for next week? Because so-and-so is…blah blah blah.”

KL __ And on Industry, on the trading-floor set, we had a roof full of seagulls. They were so loud, it delayed shooting. The crew had to hire a hawk to chase them away.

DG __ Some real behind the scenes

KL __ There’s more, the hawk was so vastly outnumbered by the seagulls that, instead of training it to chase them, they trained it to bait the seagulls into following it away. [laughs]

MH __ You can even Google it, the Bad Wolf Studios’ hawk. There are Getty headshots of it wearing a leather flying mask. Majestic as hell. [All laugh] I was like, “Did you just pluck this hawk from obscurity?” They said, “No, we raised it for this.” I was like, why not just put spikes on the roof? But they didn’t want to hurt nature. So they hired a hawk instead.

KL __ And how does the hawk feel about this? It’s like, “I was supposed to chase, now I’m being baited?”

MH __ I’m the bait!

KL __ Yeah, exactly. Pretend you’re afraid

MH __ He’s got his superhero mask, flying away from the studio.

KL __ Dreamt his whole life to do this job!

MH __ From the egg, hatched to be a chaser, and now he is the chased. That’s his life.

KL __ Demeaning. Totally demeaning. Talk about power: given, taken, performed under pressure. You know what I mean? [All laugh]

DG __ OK. I need to reclaim the power and bring this conversation back to sanity. In a world that moves so fast, what do you want to hold onto so it doesn’t slip away?

MH __ From my perspective, the world slipping away just feels like moving from one reality to the next. The things I hold onto to ground me as life changes so quickly are my relationships, my day-one people. People who really understand and love me for who I am inside. Ken is one of those people I hold onto tightly. I hold onto my mom, my husband, my friends and family from college, the people who really know me. That’s how I ground myself.

KL __ That’s a great answer. I find that if I’m present in the here and now, everything is already in it. The thing I’m running toward, the thing I long for, the past, it’s all already part of this moment. I don’t have to chase it. I don’t have to long for it. Nothing is missing. Sometimes being present comes easily, other times it takes effort, but that’s what I aim for.

Photography Kevin Sinclair, Styling DaVian Lain, Interview David Gargiulo, Makeup (Myha'la) Shyanna Lundi, Hair (Myha'la) Dre Demry Sanders (MA Group), Groomer (Ken) Markphong Tram (ABTP) using Dior Beauty, Light Assistant Isaac Poole, Stylist Assistant Amira Schwerdt, Talent Ken Leung (Wolf|Kasteler PR), Talent Myha’la Herrold (Viewpoint PR), Location The Standard High Line (The Boom Room).

Below: Myha'la wears: total look ZIMMERMANN, necklace CARTIER , shoes ALEXANDRE BIRMAN. Ken wears: total look CANALI.